Montek Singh Ahluwalia

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Montek Singh Ahluwalia
Delhi
April 2010

Montek Singh Ahluwalia is the Deputy Chairman of the Planning Commission, Government of India. He was interviewed in Delhi on the second week of April 2010 by Fausto Aarya De Santis

The scope of this scene is to understand from the Deputy Chairman of the Planning Commission what effect did signing the MDGs (in the year 2000) have on the formulation of the 5 year plans of the Government of India. To understand the efforts and resources being put by the Government in the implementation of projects aimed at MDGs, how much percentage comes as foreign aid and how much of it are India's resources. Also to investigate whether lessons learned by international cooperation activities are used in national projects and policies, both in developed and developing countries.

The Planning Commission is the institution which formulates the five year programs of the elected Government. In this interview we wish to understand what are the impact of signing the MDGs on the formulation of the five year plan, focusing on MDG 1, 4 and 5. What are the efforts of the GoaI on the eradicating extreme poverty and on improving the health conditions?

Did signing the MDGs influence their programs? In what way? What are the achievements and challenges of these programs? And what challenges lie ahead of India in creating a Global Partnership aimed at development?

What are the Government of India's programs aimed at development? How is India planning to combine their efforts along with the other countries to achieve a Global Partnership for Development?

What alternative views, facts or ideas does the audience need to understand? India puts much of its resources in projects aimed at development, foreign aid helps in achieving the objectives set by the GoaI, but it is not indispensable.

What facts must the audience gather by watching it ? India is committed towards the MDG, but it is also facing though challenges in certain fields.

Why do you think certain governments are steadfast in their commitments towards MDGs while others aren't? We are committed to our goals. MDGs is an UN terminology; if you want to describe our goals as MDGs that is a different issue. I'm making this distinction because in our program we acknowledge the importance of MDGs but we don't call this a commitment because of MDGs... this has been a been part of our planning process for years. Across the world some governments are commitment some our not; in our own country also some state are committed and some are not. Ultimately in a democratic environment whatever a government does is because that is what the people who elected it wanted it to do... because if the government recognizes that if carries on doing this it won't be elected again, it won't do it

What are the factors which generate poverty? Low productivity, low access to resource, not having education and the economy not generating productive jobs. This is what underdevelopment means.

Do Resources play a role? And how would you define resources? In a broader sense resources includes human resources, natural resources, land resources and to the extent the government has to play a role it has to be financial resources, since the government has to spend money. A system that has a lot of resources in the private sector, a financial system that delivers the resources where they can be most productive and a government that can generate resources through the fiscal system... put together can put in place a lot of programs that can address the factors which create poverty.

What is the Government of India doing to address the factors which create poverty?    Anything which promotes growth is surely also going to remove poverty. We are trying to improve access to education, to health services... Health is a key element in human welfare. Poverty is not to be just defined in income earning possibility, it is also access to essential service… like health, electrification, clean drinking water, sanitation. These are very important part in the efforts to remove poverty and the Government is involved in all of them.

Is the health sector being looked from the private prospective or in the public? India spends about the same proportion on Heath as other countries do, but the Government spends much less and much more expenditure is done on the private sector. Our feeling is that the Government needs to spend much more in order to strengthen health services... which is why we have launched the National Rural Health Mission and Rashtriya Swasth Bima Yojana (a government subsidized insurance)

issue 1

There is an opinion that most of the Government's fund which are allocated don't reach at the grassroots level, why do you think it is so? No scheme is perfect, it is impossible to have a scheme which has zero leakage. When you say that they don't reach at the bottom do you mean that the leakage is 100... absolutely not! Leakage are high, even as high as 30%, but 70% is reaching at people. The other reason people think that the schemes are not having the effect that the effect that were expected, is that the challenges are very complex one... you can have very good schemes but you don't deliver the result. (Gives example of education) and says that Pratham brings out a report every year and saw that 37% percent of children in class 5 cannot read a text for class 2. Now if you say that therefore the benefits are not reaching the target population, in a sense you are right. But what can the government do? It sets up schools, it higher teachers... we say that you need to have more parent-teacher involvement, you must have local communities enforcing accountability, teachers must be made to teach. These are things that are not just done by governments, these are things done by social pressure, social awareness, social mobilization and it would not surprise me that it takes time. It is not true that nothing is happening, lots is happening!

issue 6

Why do you think certain governments in the world are steadfast in their commitments and others aren't? We are committed to our goals. MDGs is an UN terminology; if you want to describe our goals as MDGs that is a different issue. I'm making this distinction because in our program we acknowledge the importance of MDGs but we don't call this a commitment because of MDGs... this has been a been part of our planning process for years. Across the world some governments are commitment some our not; in our own country also some state are committed and some are not. Ultimately in a democratic environment whatever a government does is because that is what the people who elected it wanted it to do... because if the government recognizes that if carries on doing this it won't be elected again, it won't do it

Does the Government give importance to the inputs and suggestion given by Civil Society? It listens all the time, but what do civil society organizations have to suggest? Usually their suggestion is: (a) You must have involvement with the local community. We completely agree with that. The central government keeps telling the state "please empower your local community". The central government doe snot have the power to do that, only the stare government has. (b) You should involve the NGOs, and we agree with that too. When good NGOs get involved they improve the quality of implementation and we encourage people to involve good NGOs. But the central government cannot start saying that this NGO is better than that NGO; it is the local body which controls the decision which has to choose the NGO. The problem is that if local bodies don't want change they will surely not choose NGOs which want change... that is social capital, social harmony.

Difficulties in achieving Human Developments Goals in a Democrac You must not think of setting right defects as a mechanical task. Many of the human development goals can be achieved top down in an Autocracy, because you can just enforce things. In a democracy you cannot do that. The other way you do that is social mobilization and social pressure. That requires participation, empowerment, capacity building and social homogeneity.

issue 8

Do Millennium Development Goals play a role in the formulation of the Planning Commissions plans? MDGs refer to commonly shared notions of what constitutes and
improvement in human welfare. Our plans have specific programs which deal with deal with each of the Human Development Goals; if these programs are successfully implemented then the Government will end up
meeting the MDGs….

Do you think that the Government of India makes too many plans, too many promises? There is nothing wrong with making too many promises, it pushes the government to deliver on those promises. The central government has about 150 programs but over 90% of the money goes in the top 20 programs, that is not too many.

India is both a donor and an aid receiving country, what give India this peculiar characteristic? We have always felt that we have some capacity to help people. Globally we are among the poorest country so we accept aid... but we also want to show that we can use some of our resources in other to help other countries where possible

issue 7

There is a concept of World Citizenship developing, what is your opinion on it?
I'm not aware of what it means. There is certainly a concept that we are a global community. There is a concept that each citizen much conduct himself in a manner in which his country is seen as a country to be a good global citizen. But in my view if you don't have global taxation you don't have global citizenship. So the argument that there is global citizenship is an exaggerated claim. You can only be citizen of one government, so if you ever had global citizenship then everybody would be a citizen... the question is whether he would be a good citizen or a bad citizen.

Ultimately individuals are citizens of the country they belong to. There may be global values, universal values but each citizen must operate in the confinement of the country he or she is a citizen of.
Do you think you as an individual can make a difference to the poorest in the world? If you are moving towards a world which is more peaceful and more prosperous somehow, somewhere, on the whole yu may make a difference to everyone in a positive way. But linking what you do to the poorest in the world is romantic idea but it does not translate itself into anything practical. In my present position i can definitely make a difference to the poorest in India... i may not succeed but can argue for policies in India which can do that. Rather than distract myself with some global objective let us concentrate to do something in India.

issue 4

Do you think cultures should dialogue more for better understanding or dialogue less to preserve their cultural identities? The concept of an identity that is static is a huge mistake. Any effort to preserve identity is backward looking, static and frozen. The global environment is increasing the possibilities for countries and cultures to interact and i would strongly in favor of anything which increases that interaction. But i'm not a supporter of the idea of all cultures merging into a some pre-digested-homogenized-mush. I would like to see an interaction of cultures where cultures absorb things from outside, contribute things to the outside but yet remain distinctly different. How do you get the balance is the issue in my view.

issue 5

Can knowledge and social harmony be considered as resources? Distinguishes between embodied and disembodied knowledge, and believes the first is a resource for a country but the latter is only a tool available to everyone but of no use to anyone.

issue 10

What are the ethical responsibility of opinion makers in enabling informed choices amongst the public on actions aimed at development?   Opinion makers should contribute to society and try shape opinions in the direction which they think are important.

issue 9

This interview ha been used in the following Manual or Issue Chapters:

Why do you think certain governments are steadfast in their commitments towards MDGs while others aren't? We are committed to our goals. MDGs is an UN terminology; if you want to describe our goals as MDGs that is a different issue. I'm making this distinction because in our program we acknowledge the importance of MDGs but we don't call this a commitment because of MDGs... this has been a been part of our planning process for years. Across the world some governments are commitment some our not; in our own country also some state are committed and some are not. Ultimately in a democratic environment whatever a government does is because that is what the people who elected it wanted it to do... because if the government recognizes that if carries on doing this it won't be elected again, it won't do it What are the factors which generate poverty? Low productivity, low access to resource, not having education and the economy not generating productive jobs. This is what underdevelopment means. Do Resources play a role? And how would you define resources? In a broader sense resources includes human resources, natural resources, land resources and to the extent the government has to play a role it has to be financial resources, since the government has to spend money. A system that has a lot of resources in the private sector, a financial system that delivers the resources where they can be most productive and a government that can generate resources through the fiscal system... put together can put in place a lot of programs that can address the factors which create poverty. What is the Government of India doing to address the factors which create poverty? Anything which promotes growth is surely also going to remove poverty. We are trying to improve access to education, to health services... Health is a key element in human welfare. Poverty is not to be just defined in income earning possibility, it is also access to essential service… like health, electrification, clean drinking water, sanitation. These are very important part in the efforts to remove poverty and the Government is involved in all of them. Is the health sector being looked from the private prospective or in the public? India spends about the same proportion on Heath as other countries do, but the Government spends much less and much more expenditure is done on the private sector. Our feeling is that the Government needs to spend much more in order to strengthen health services... which is why we have launched the National Rural Health Mission and Rashtriya Swasth Bima Yojana (a government subsidized insurance)	issue 1
There is an opinion that most of the Government's fund which are allocated don't reach at the grassroots level, why do you think it is so? No scheme is perfect, it is impossible to have a scheme which has zero leakage. When you say that they don't reach at the bottom do you mean that the leakage is 100... absolutely not! Leakage are high, even as high as 30%, but 70% is reaching at people. The other reason people think that the schemes are not having the effect that the effect that were expected, is that the challenges are very complex one... you can have very good schemes but you don't deliver the result. (Gives example of education) and says that Pratham brings out a report every year and saw that 37% percent of children in class 5 cannot read a text for class 2. Now if you say that therefore the benefits are not reaching the target population, in a sense you are right. But what can the government do? It sets up schools, it higher teachers... we say that you need to have more parent-teacher involvement, you must have local communities enforcing accountability, teachers must be made to teach. These are things that are not just done by governments, these are things done by social pressure, social awareness, social mobilization and it would not surprise me that it takes time. It is not true that nothing is happening, lots is happening!	issue 6
Why do you think certain governments in the world are steadfast in their commitments and others aren't? We are committed to our goals. MDGs is an UN terminology; if you want to describe our goals as MDGs that is a different issue. I'm making this distinction because in our program we acknowledge the importance of MDGs but we don't call this a commitment because of MDGs... this has been a been part of our planning process for years. Across the world some governments are commitment some our not; in our own country also some state are committed and some are not. Ultimately in a democratic environment whatever a government does is because that is what the people who elected it wanted it to do... because if the government recognizes that if carries on doing this it won't be elected again, it won't do it Does the Government give importance to the inputs and suggestion given by Civil Society? It listens all the time, but what do civil society organizations have to suggest? Usually their suggestion is: (a) You must have involvement with the local community. We completely agree with that. The central government keeps telling the state "please empower your local community". The central government doe snot have the power to do that, only the stare government has. (b) You should involve the NGOs, and we agree with that too. When good NGOs get involved they improve the quality of implementation and we encourage people to involve good NGOs. But the central government cannot start saying that this NGO is better than that NGO; it is the local body which controls the decision which has to choose the NGO. The problem is that if local bodies don't want change they will surely not choose NGOs which want change... that is social capital, social harmony. Difficulties in achieving Human Developments Goals in a Democrac You must not think of setting right defects as a mechanical task. Many of the human development goals can be achieved top down in an Autocracy, because you can just enforce things. In a democracy you cannot do that. The other way you do that is social mobilization and social pressure. That requires participation, empowerment, capacity building and social homogeneity.	issue 8
Do Millennium Development Goals play a role in the formulation of the Planning Commissions plans? MDGs refer to commonly shared notions of what constitutes and improvement in human welfare. Our plans have specific programs which deal with deal with each of the Human Development Goals; if these programs are successfully implemented then the Government will end up meeting the MDGs…. Do you think that the Government of India makes too many plans, too many promises? There is nothing wrong with making too many promises, it pushes the government to deliver on those promises. The central government has about 150 programs but over 90% of the money goes in the top 20 programs, that is not too many. India is both a donor and an aid receiving country, what give India this peculiar characteristic? We have always felt that we have some capacity to help people. Globally we are among the poorest country so we accept aid... but we also want to show that we can use some of our resources in other to help other countries where possible	issue 7
There is a concept of World Citizenship developing, what is your opinion on it? I'm not aware of what it means. There is certainly a concept that we are a global community. There is a concept that each citizen much conduct himself in a manner in which his country is seen as a country to be a good global citizen. But in my view if you don't have global taxation you don't have global citizenship. So the argument that there is global citizenship is an exaggerated claim. You can only be citizen of one government, so if you ever had global citizenship then everybody would be a citizen... the question is whether he would be a good citizen or a bad citizen. Ultimately individuals are citizens of the country they belong to. There may be global values, universal values but each citizen must operate in the confinement of the country he or she is a citizen of. Do you think you as an individual can make a difference to the poorest in the world? If you are moving towards a world which is more peaceful and more prosperous somehow, somewhere, on the whole yu may make a difference to everyone in a positive way. But linking what you do to the poorest in the world is romantic idea but it does not translate itself into anything practical. In my present position i can definitely make a difference to the poorest in India... i may not succeed but can argue for policies in India which can do that. Rather than distract myself with some global objective let us concentrate to do something in India.	issue 4
Do you think cultures should dialogue more for better understanding or dialogue less to preserve their cultural identities? The concept of an identity that is static is a huge mistake. Any effort to preserve identity is backward looking, static and frozen. The global environment is increasing the possibilities for countries and cultures to interact and i would strongly in favor of anything which increases that interaction. But i'm not a supporter of the idea of all cultures merging into a some pre-digested-homogenized-mush. I would like to see an interaction of cultures where cultures absorb things from outside, contribute things to the outside but yet remain distinctly different. How do you get the balance is the issue in my view.	issue 5
Can knowledge and social harmony be considered as resources? Distinguishes between embodied and disembodied knowledge, and believes the first is a resource for a country but the latter is only a tool available to everyone but of no use to anyone.	issue 10
What are the ethical responsibility of opinion makers in enabling informed choices amongst the public on actions aimed at development? Opinion makers should contribute to society and try shape opinions in the direction which they think are important.	issue 9